Bernard Samuels in conversation on Ben Hartley and writing
I’m interested in your original attraction to Ben Hartley’s work – what struck you first - the colour or the images?
Both. I found his paintings so exciting and lively. I remember very clearly the ones I first saw. In time I’ve come to grips more with his work. Quite a lot of Ben’s pictures are a bit difficult to read. I like the way he explores some very unusual angles. I love ‘Knitnap’ – a picture of a woman knitting with a dog on her knee.
You like the quirkiness of his work?
Norman Jaques remembered an occasion where he took Ben to a Georgian house in a park to do some drawing. He left him in a room with wonderful wallpaper and glorious furniture. When he came back Ben was standing at the window looking into the park. All he had drawn was the cord on the string at the bottom of a blind.
‘Dumps’ is so simply composed and constructed, but on the other hand some of the pictures are all different things thrown in together. Ben knew how to put a lot of things in – or not – and make it work.
So what would you say most motivated his creativity?
Definitely the countryside and its people and animals. I think his religion was important: he was a devout Christian and became a Catholic. Though his religion was very important, it’s extremely rare for it to show up explicitly in his paintings.
What struck you most about the man himself?
He was extremely private. He was very pleasant and courteous but there was something in his demeanour that made you feel you didn’t want to intrude.
Have you ever had the desire to paint yourself?
When I was a kid – otherwise I’ve spent most of my life promoting artists and I play the cello and have a huge amount to do with music.
You have a talent for ‘discovering’ artists – notably Beryl Cook as well as Ben Hartley. Do you feel you recognise a special charisma?
I think I can only say “yes” to that in retrospect! But I was massively enthusiastic about both of them. Ben and I had very little conversation. My friend Mary was wonderful with people and loved his paintings and the countryside. She was a wonderful cook too and there’d always be a meal when Ben came round. But he said very little. Mary talked on - I remember she often reminisced about Beatrix Potter who moved to the North and kept a farm and Ben enjoyed listening.
Do you think there is a spiritual quality about Ben Hartley’s work?
Ben suffered the world’s sadness. He worried about children in the Third World, the suffering of the Jews in the Holocaust. In the 60s, still a youngish man, the notebooks were full of words as well as drawing. He was fond of poetry and wrote in a poetic way.
He was a deeply spiritual person and engaged with the world through his art. Certainly a visionary. There’s ‘Fawns Autumn’ – absolutely stunning – it has that intense and glorious quality – oh yes there is no doubt he was a spiritual person. He’s been compared to Gwen John – people like that live these solitary lives because they’re protecting their work. He couldn’t have functioned in a relationship.
You’re good at promoting artists work. What are the skills for this?
Perseverance and being a bit of a nutcase! It’s all to do with enthusiasm and having the conviction – if I’m enthusiastic, I’m convinced!
Do you have a sense of something spiritual happening – of being on a spiritual plane - when you’re writing?
It’s been an extraordinary experience living with these notebooks and spending so many hours getting involved in Ben’s thoughts. It’s something you can’t get from looking at the paintings. I don’t think you could get closer to a human being in any other way.
Did you enjoy writing your books about Ben and how long did it take you?
I’d never done anything on this scale before I wrote the first one, ‘Ben Hartley’. It was a lot of work doing the research and getting it to read well – it didn’t trip off the tongue or fall off the pen lightly. I was determined to make things clear. I used to think it intelligent to be complicated – it’s not – simplicity and clarity are far more important and to be honest I enjoy it more that way!
I really only settled down to the second one, Pigs Must Eat on Sundays, last year. For this one there wasn’t really a lot of work to do as I’d already gone through Ben’s notebooks at least twice – all 320! It took me time, though, to settle what period to include.
Did you have help?
Yes, from my editor who kept me going and from the designer who is also an extremely distinguished writer and does a lot of work for the National Gallery, etc.
Will there be further instalments?
I’m cogitating whether to do more. I might. The new book only covers 1964 and 1965.
Have you written other books?
I compiled a book about Rimbaud years ago. Ben was very interested in French Literature too.
Do you think art – including writing – has a spiritual connection?
I don’t see it as the only way. Going back to Ben, that he is so humane in the feeling he has for people and animals. And nature was very important to him and of course God.
*****
Bernard Samuels is the author of two books on Ben Hartley.
Ben Hartley is a large format paperback containing a joyous collection
of his vibrantly coloured paintings. Pigs Must Eat on Sundays centres
on Ben Hartley’s 1964 and 1965 notebooks with an endearingly fascinating
collection of his thoughts and brilliant drawings. Visit www.Ben-Hartley.co.uk